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	<title>Comments on: Afghanistan: Lessons of Vietnam</title>
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		<title>By: Henry A. Eckstein</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-2/#comment-195013</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry A. Eckstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-195013</guid>
		<description>Iraq and Afghanistan are two illustrations of the folly 
of letting politicians fight wars within the divisive 
atmosphere of partisan politics and they showcase the idiocy
of doing without the input of strategic planners beforehand.

We cannot lay this on the head of Obama, because he was 
NOT responsible for starting a war without a clear mandate
from Congress and without a clear plan of action from
BOTH warfighting field commanders AND exit strategists.

On a general scale, Afghanistan and Iraq are where they
are today because of an accident in geography and demographics.

Today we a have a large population of young and ignorant
midieval-level peasants trying to eke out a living
in a hostile environment that is really nothing more than
barren rock and hot sand. These are countries with 
NO OBVIOUS NATURAL RESOURCES and which 
technically have NO WAY of supporting (i.e. feeding) 
the populations thay have now on any sustainable basis.

The harsh climate and barren lands pretty much preclude
the formation of any type of first world society without 
the addition of First-world know-how and of course that 
greaser of many hands -- OIL --- !!!

Mixed in with basic tribalism and lack of technology,
you have a horde of Afghani Mujihadeen riding donkeys
and Iraqi warlords trying to defend a way of life that 
THEY THINK is suited to the harsh climate in which they live.

Unfortunately for them, an Arabic man from an extrememly
wealthy Saudi family decided to use one country as a 
home base for his operations against the Western World
and the Afghanis are now paying dearly for that 
transgression.

The ONLY THING that Afghanistan has in ANY WAY,
SHAPE OR FORM, is that it is a strategically located 
land mass that COULD BE used as a well-placed hub 
of transport connecting Russia, Europe, Africa, East Asia 
and the Middle East together.

Its lands are EXTREMELY VALUABLE as a simple facility
to lay pipes, roads and train tracks that are the hub
of transport for consumer goods, oil, gas and water to many 
lands. Whoever controls that land mass can profit immensely 
from taking a percentage cut from all the goods, people and 
resources passing through and thus we have countries such 
as Britian, Soviet Union and today, the USA all fighting dearly 
for a piece of the action.

Local warlords and religious leaders of course took offence to
the incoming hordes of outsiders muscling in on their ancestral
lands thus we eventually get the situation we have today.

Iraq is similar except that its greatest resource is 
EASILY RECOVERABLE OIL and thus is MORE 
VALUABLE to the western world who basically muscled 
in on the action when the local leader (i.e. Saddam Hussein) 
began acting a little too belligerent and crazy for the tastes 
of President Bush Junior...ergo, we get a big WAR!

And to explain some background as to the dynamics of 
world power today, we must visit why our position is as
it is. The Western World as we are today is because of 
educational sacrifices made many years and generations 
ago that has brought us to to a level that on the whole is far 
better than living in caves, mud huts and riding donkeys like 
the current bunch of warring Afghani Mujihadeen and 
Sunni or Shiite Iraqis constrained by their local cultural ties 
and base tribalism.

This will sound arrogant and condescending but 
The Truth is The Truth !!!

We are the First World BECAUSE we have mostly transcended
tribalism and religious tomfoolery into group cooperation
and the embrace of social, financial and technological
sophistication.

They are living in caves and mud huts (and trust they 
ARE living in CAVES and MUD HUTS!) within Iraq and
Afghanistan because of a general lack of public knowledge, 
motivation and imagination to go beyond what is today. 
The public of those failed states MUST BEAR SOME 
RESPONSIBILITY for their own current state of being.

It is Simple Myopia (Short-Sightedness) with regards to 
accepting and embracing CHANGE in social mores, 
group cooperation and advancement in technology.

And to put it bluntly, they are BACKWARDS and will 
STAY THAT WAY until they LEARN to accept change! 
My biggest beef is WHY ARE WE (the First World!) even 
BOTHERING to deal with them in the manner we are today.

As a Left-Wing Canadian and a paradoxically pro-military 
Libertarian, I ABSOLUTELY CRINGE at the hubris of us 
21st century Westerners thinking that we could use sporadic 
application of general military forces to effect massive cultural 
change on a society that requires smaller, more focused steps 
to bring it into said 21st century!

How the heck are we to expect them to accept general 
elections, massive industrialism and industrialization when the 
basics have not even been introduced yet....like a network of 
passable roads, clean drinking water, portable electricity and 
even the concept of a basic flushable toilet and toilet paper 
which 90 percent of the Afghani and Rural Iraqi public has 
never seen much yet ever USED!

By trying to use MASSIVE OVERT FORCE to ensure security 
you are only making the country more insecure when a tight, 
highly focused covert military force could be used COVERTLY 
to REMOVE the individuals and groups that stand in the way 
of general Afghani and Iraqi societal progress. You do not have 
to kill the troublemakers, just REMOVE them physically from 
the local power structure and circle of influence.

I know that MANY people REFUSE to change unless forced to 
by either internal stressors or external stressors! 
And I definitely think using massive overt force as we are 
now is a MISTAKE as an external change stressor. I also 
think the internal divisive forces that CURRENTLY prevent 
a larger societal change in Afghanistan and Iraq can be 
mitigated by doing low-level covert internal technical and 
social missions to PERMANENTLY REMOVE the cultural 
roadblocks and local troublemakers that contribute to the 
blockage of social change required to jumpstart the
Afghan and Iraqi march into the 21st century.

So what Obama needs to do NOW is pull out the current 
large-scale visible forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and begin 
spending more TIME and MONEY on highly mobile, highly 
covert direct action groups to coerce, infiltrate, distribute and 
negotiate a change in the mindset of the Iraqi or Afghani village 
warlord, militiaman and religious leader which will trickle down 
to the average villager/city dweller. And after a period of time 
the higher ups are found NOT TO BE CHANGING THEIR 
HABITS, you do what is done in the western world of work:

YOU FIRE THEM !!!

by either removing them from religious, political &amp; monetary 
power or if necessary, creating such localized or personally 
debilitating conditions such that they are not in any shape to 
interfere or influence!!!

This will take PROBABLY DECADES (50 to 60 years is my 
guess) but it is still better than spending 12 billion A MONTH 
on current large scale operations. For that kind of money, 
I could outfit an entire 1000 man SEAL or DELTA team with 
Pashtun and Arabic language and cultural training and have 
them influence and engage local village leaders or do covert 
in-field direct action to remove the local warlords and drug lords 
from power for at least 20 years which would do a heck of a lot 
more good than sending a battallion of tanks into Khandahar 
or Baghdad.

Think of it! We spend 12 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH 
within Iraq and Afghanistant!!! $12,000,000,000 per Month!

12 billion a month could buy a lot of portable toilets and
toilet paper AND some cheap water well drilling gear in addition
to local training to use and build such materiel by the locals.

12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable brick kilns
and enough fuel to start building thousands of miles of 
passable roads across the entire nation to bring in food from 
the local farms to the city markets causing an accompanying
large-scale economic boost that such roads would bring
if the locals are employed in such large labor-intensive
public works.

12 billion a month would buy a lot of cell phones and wireless
infrastructure which would give the average Afghani and Iraqi
folk the freedom to communicate and freedom of choice to 
MOVE or STAY as they see fit!

The above 36 billion dollars could turn an enemy into a friend
if applied judiciously and with political skill. But right now,
all I see is a bunch of fear mongering politicos and war-hungry
generals wanting to give it a go without too much thought at
long-term strategic consequences of using large scale military
action within a geographical sphere of influence that does
not REQUIRE large scale military force at all!

I am available for hire if you want a better return
for your taxes than what you have been getting so far!

Any Comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iraq and Afghanistan are two illustrations of the folly<br />
of letting politicians fight wars within the divisive<br />
atmosphere of partisan politics and they showcase the idiocy<br />
of doing without the input of strategic planners beforehand.</p>
<p>We cannot lay this on the head of Obama, because he was<br />
NOT responsible for starting a war without a clear mandate<br />
from Congress and without a clear plan of action from<br />
BOTH warfighting field commanders AND exit strategists.</p>
<p>On a general scale, Afghanistan and Iraq are where they<br />
are today because of an accident in geography and demographics.</p>
<p>Today we a have a large population of young and ignorant<br />
midieval-level peasants trying to eke out a living<br />
in a hostile environment that is really nothing more than<br />
barren rock and hot sand. These are countries with<br />
NO OBVIOUS NATURAL RESOURCES and which<br />
technically have NO WAY of supporting (i.e. feeding)<br />
the populations thay have now on any sustainable basis.</p>
<p>The harsh climate and barren lands pretty much preclude<br />
the formation of any type of first world society without<br />
the addition of First-world know-how and of course that<br />
greaser of many hands &#8212; OIL &#8212; !!!</p>
<p>Mixed in with basic tribalism and lack of technology,<br />
you have a horde of Afghani Mujihadeen riding donkeys<br />
and Iraqi warlords trying to defend a way of life that<br />
THEY THINK is suited to the harsh climate in which they live.</p>
<p>Unfortunately for them, an Arabic man from an extrememly<br />
wealthy Saudi family decided to use one country as a<br />
home base for his operations against the Western World<br />
and the Afghanis are now paying dearly for that<br />
transgression.</p>
<p>The ONLY THING that Afghanistan has in ANY WAY,<br />
SHAPE OR FORM, is that it is a strategically located<br />
land mass that COULD BE used as a well-placed hub<br />
of transport connecting Russia, Europe, Africa, East Asia<br />
and the Middle East together.</p>
<p>Its lands are EXTREMELY VALUABLE as a simple facility<br />
to lay pipes, roads and train tracks that are the hub<br />
of transport for consumer goods, oil, gas and water to many<br />
lands. Whoever controls that land mass can profit immensely<br />
from taking a percentage cut from all the goods, people and<br />
resources passing through and thus we have countries such<br />
as Britian, Soviet Union and today, the USA all fighting dearly<br />
for a piece of the action.</p>
<p>Local warlords and religious leaders of course took offence to<br />
the incoming hordes of outsiders muscling in on their ancestral<br />
lands thus we eventually get the situation we have today.</p>
<p>Iraq is similar except that its greatest resource is<br />
EASILY RECOVERABLE OIL and thus is MORE<br />
VALUABLE to the western world who basically muscled<br />
in on the action when the local leader (i.e. Saddam Hussein)<br />
began acting a little too belligerent and crazy for the tastes<br />
of President Bush Junior&#8230;ergo, we get a big WAR!</p>
<p>And to explain some background as to the dynamics of<br />
world power today, we must visit why our position is as<br />
it is. The Western World as we are today is because of<br />
educational sacrifices made many years and generations<br />
ago that has brought us to to a level that on the whole is far<br />
better than living in caves, mud huts and riding donkeys like<br />
the current bunch of warring Afghani Mujihadeen and<br />
Sunni or Shiite Iraqis constrained by their local cultural ties<br />
and base tribalism.</p>
<p>This will sound arrogant and condescending but<br />
The Truth is The Truth !!!</p>
<p>We are the First World BECAUSE we have mostly transcended<br />
tribalism and religious tomfoolery into group cooperation<br />
and the embrace of social, financial and technological<br />
sophistication.</p>
<p>They are living in caves and mud huts (and trust they<br />
ARE living in CAVES and MUD HUTS!) within Iraq and<br />
Afghanistan because of a general lack of public knowledge,<br />
motivation and imagination to go beyond what is today.<br />
The public of those failed states MUST BEAR SOME<br />
RESPONSIBILITY for their own current state of being.</p>
<p>It is Simple Myopia (Short-Sightedness) with regards to<br />
accepting and embracing CHANGE in social mores,<br />
group cooperation and advancement in technology.</p>
<p>And to put it bluntly, they are BACKWARDS and will<br />
STAY THAT WAY until they LEARN to accept change!<br />
My biggest beef is WHY ARE WE (the First World!) even<br />
BOTHERING to deal with them in the manner we are today.</p>
<p>As a Left-Wing Canadian and a paradoxically pro-military<br />
Libertarian, I ABSOLUTELY CRINGE at the hubris of us<br />
21st century Westerners thinking that we could use sporadic<br />
application of general military forces to effect massive cultural<br />
change on a society that requires smaller, more focused steps<br />
to bring it into said 21st century!</p>
<p>How the heck are we to expect them to accept general<br />
elections, massive industrialism and industrialization when the<br />
basics have not even been introduced yet&#8230;.like a network of<br />
passable roads, clean drinking water, portable electricity and<br />
even the concept of a basic flushable toilet and toilet paper<br />
which 90 percent of the Afghani and Rural Iraqi public has<br />
never seen much yet ever USED!</p>
<p>By trying to use MASSIVE OVERT FORCE to ensure security<br />
you are only making the country more insecure when a tight,<br />
highly focused covert military force could be used COVERTLY<br />
to REMOVE the individuals and groups that stand in the way<br />
of general Afghani and Iraqi societal progress. You do not have<br />
to kill the troublemakers, just REMOVE them physically from<br />
the local power structure and circle of influence.</p>
<p>I know that MANY people REFUSE to change unless forced to<br />
by either internal stressors or external stressors!<br />
And I definitely think using massive overt force as we are<br />
now is a MISTAKE as an external change stressor. I also<br />
think the internal divisive forces that CURRENTLY prevent<br />
a larger societal change in Afghanistan and Iraq can be<br />
mitigated by doing low-level covert internal technical and<br />
social missions to PERMANENTLY REMOVE the cultural<br />
roadblocks and local troublemakers that contribute to the<br />
blockage of social change required to jumpstart the<br />
Afghan and Iraqi march into the 21st century.</p>
<p>So what Obama needs to do NOW is pull out the current<br />
large-scale visible forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and begin<br />
spending more TIME and MONEY on highly mobile, highly<br />
covert direct action groups to coerce, infiltrate, distribute and<br />
negotiate a change in the mindset of the Iraqi or Afghani village<br />
warlord, militiaman and religious leader which will trickle down<br />
to the average villager/city dweller. And after a period of time<br />
the higher ups are found NOT TO BE CHANGING THEIR<br />
HABITS, you do what is done in the western world of work:</p>
<p>YOU FIRE THEM !!!</p>
<p>by either removing them from religious, political &amp; monetary<br />
power or if necessary, creating such localized or personally<br />
debilitating conditions such that they are not in any shape to<br />
interfere or influence!!!</p>
<p>This will take PROBABLY DECADES (50 to 60 years is my<br />
guess) but it is still better than spending 12 billion A MONTH<br />
on current large scale operations. For that kind of money,<br />
I could outfit an entire 1000 man SEAL or DELTA team with<br />
Pashtun and Arabic language and cultural training and have<br />
them influence and engage local village leaders or do covert<br />
in-field direct action to remove the local warlords and drug lords<br />
from power for at least 20 years which would do a heck of a lot<br />
more good than sending a battallion of tanks into Khandahar<br />
or Baghdad.</p>
<p>Think of it! We spend 12 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH<br />
within Iraq and Afghanistant!!! $12,000,000,000 per Month!</p>
<p>12 billion a month could buy a lot of portable toilets and<br />
toilet paper AND some cheap water well drilling gear in addition<br />
to local training to use and build such materiel by the locals.</p>
<p>12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable brick kilns<br />
and enough fuel to start building thousands of miles of<br />
passable roads across the entire nation to bring in food from<br />
the local farms to the city markets causing an accompanying<br />
large-scale economic boost that such roads would bring<br />
if the locals are employed in such large labor-intensive<br />
public works.</p>
<p>12 billion a month would buy a lot of cell phones and wireless<br />
infrastructure which would give the average Afghani and Iraqi<br />
folk the freedom to communicate and freedom of choice to<br />
MOVE or STAY as they see fit!</p>
<p>The above 36 billion dollars could turn an enemy into a friend<br />
if applied judiciously and with political skill. But right now,<br />
all I see is a bunch of fear mongering politicos and war-hungry<br />
generals wanting to give it a go without too much thought at<br />
long-term strategic consequences of using large scale military<br />
action within a geographical sphere of influence that does<br />
not REQUIRE large scale military force at all!</p>
<p>I am available for hire if you want a better return<br />
for your taxes than what you have been getting so far!</p>
<p>Any Comments?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Henry A. Eckstein</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-195009</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry A. Eckstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-195009</guid>
		<description>Iraq and Afghanistan are two illustrations of the folly 
of letting politicians fight wars within the divisive 
atmosphere of partisan politics and they showcase the idiocy
of doing without the input of strategic planners beforehand.

We cannot lay this on the head of Obama, because he was 
NOT responsible for starting a war without a clear mandate
from Congress and without a clear plan of action from
BOTH warfighting field commanders AND exit strategists.

On a general scale, Afghanistan and Iraq are where they
are today because of an accident in geography and demographics.

Today we a have a large population of young and ignorant
midieval-level peasants trying to eke out a living
in a hostile environment that is really nothing more than
barren rock and hot sand. These are countries with 
NO OBVIOUS NATURAL RESOURCES and which 
technically have NO WAY of supporting (i.e. feeding) 
the populations thay have now on any sustainable basis.

The harsh climate and barren lands pretty much preclude
the formation of any type of first world society without 
the addition of First-world know-how and of course that 
greaser of many hands -- OIL --- !!!

Mixed in with basic tribalism and lack of technology,
you have a horde of Afghani Mujihadeen riding donkeys
and Iraqi warlords trying to defend a way of life that 
THEY THINK is suited to the harsh climate in which they live.

Unfortunately for them, an Arabic man from an extrememly
wealthy Saudi family decided to use one country as a 
home base for his operations against the Western World
and the Afghanis are now paying dearly for that 
transgression.

The ONLY THING that Afghanistan has in ANY WAY,
SHAPE OR FORM, is that it is a strategically located 
land mass that COULD BE used as a well-placed hub 
of transport connecting Russia, Europe, Africa, East Asia 
and the Middle East together.

Its lands are EXTREMELY VALUABLE as a simple facility
to lay pipes, roads and train tracks that are the hub
of transport for consumer goods, oil, gas &amp; water to many 
lands. Whoever controls that land mass can profit immensely 
from taking a percentage cut from all the goods, people and 
resources passing through and thus we have countries such 
as Britian, Soviet Union and today, the USA all fighting dearly 
for a piece of the action.

Local warlords and religious leaders of course took offence to
the incoming hordes of outsiders muscling in on their ancestral
lands thus we eventually get the situation we have today.

Iraq is similar except that its greatest resource is 
EASILY RECOVERABLE OIL and thus is MORE 
VALUABLE to the western world who basically muscled 
in on the action when the local leader (i.e. Saddam Hussein) 
began acting a little too belligerent and crazy for the tastes 
of President Bush Junior...ergo, we get a big WAR!

And to explain some background as to the dynamics of 
world power today, we must visit why our position is as
it is. The Western World as we are today is because of 
educational sacrifices made many years and generations 
ago that has brought us to to a level that on the whole is far 
better than living in caves, mud huts and riding donkeys like 
the current bunch of warring Afghani Mujihadeen and 
Sunni/Shiite Iraqis constrained by their local cultural ties 
and base tribalism.

This will sound arrogant and condescending but 
The Truth is The Truth !!!

We are the First World BECAUSE we have mostly transcended
tribalism and religious tomfoolery into group cooperation
and the embrace of social, financial and technological
sophistication.

They are living in caves &amp; mud huts (and trust they ARE living 
in CAVES &amp; MUD HUTS!) within Iraq &amp; Afghanistan because 
of a general lack of public knowledge, motivation and 
imagination to go beyond what is today. The public of those 
failed states MUST BEAR SOME RESPONSIBILITY for their 
own current state of being.

It is Simple Myopia (Short-Sightedness) with regards to 
accepting and embracing CHANGE in social mores, 
group cooperation and advancement in technology.

And to put it bluntly, they are BACKWARDS and will 
STAY THAT WAY until they LEARN to accept change! 
My biggest beef is WHY ARE WE (the First World) even 
BOTHERING to deal with them in the manner we are today.

As a Left-Wing Canadian and a paradoxically pro-military 
Libertarian, I ABSOLUTELY CRINGE at the hubris of us 
21st century Westerners thinking that we could use sporadic 
application of general military forces to effect massive cultural 
change on a society that requires smaller, more focused steps 
to bring it into said 21st century!

How the heck are we to expect them to accept general 
elections, massive industrialism &amp; industrialization when the 
basics have not even been introduced yet....like a network of 
passable roads, clean drinking water, portable electricity and 
even the concept of a basic flushable toilet and toilet paper 
which 90% of the Afghani &amp; Rural Iraqi public has never seen 
much yet ever USED!

By trying to use MASSIVE OVERT FORCE to ensure security 
you are only making the country more insecure when a tight, 
highly focused covert military force could be used COVERTLY 
to REMOVE the individuals and groups that stand in the way 
of general Afghani and Iraqi societal progress. You do not have 
to kill the troublemakers, just REMOVE them physically from 
the local power structure and circle of influence.

I know that MANY people REFUSE to change unless forced to 
by either internal stressors or external stressors! 
And I definitely think using massive overt force as we are 
now is a MISTAKE as an external change stressor. I also 
think the internal divisive forces that CURRENTLY prevent 
a larger societal change in Afghanistan and Iraq can be 
mitigated by doing low-level covert internal technical and 
social missions to PERMANENTLY REMOVE the cultural 
roadblocks and local troublemakers that contribute to the 
blockage of social change required to jumpstart the
Afghan and Iraqi march into the 21st century.

So what Obama needs to do NOW is pull out the current 
large-scale visible forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and begin 
spending more TIME and MONEY on highly mobile, highly 
covert direct action groups to coerce, infiltrate, distribute and 
negotiate a change in the mindset of the Iraqi/Afghani village 
warlord, militiaman and religious leader which will trickle down 
to the average villager/city dweller. And after a period of time 
the higher ups are found NOT TO BE CHANGING THEIR 
HABITS, you do what is done in the western world of work ---&gt;

YOU FIRE THEM !!!

&lt;--- by either removing them from religious, political &amp; monetary 
power or if necessary, creating such localized or personally 
debilitating conditions such that they are not in any shape to 
interfere or influence!!!

This will take PROBABLY DECADES (50 to 60 years is my 
guess) but it is still better than spending 12 billion A MONTH 
on current large scale operations. For that kind of money, 
I could outfit an entire 1000 man SEAL/DELTA team with 
Pashtun/Arabic language and cultural training and have them 
influence and/or engage local village leaders or do covert in-field
direct action to remove the local war &amp; drug lords from power
for at least 20 years which would do a hell of a lot more good
than sending a battallion of tanks into Khandahar or Baghdad.

Think of it! We spend 12 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH 
within Iraq and Afghanistant!!! $12,000,000,000/Month!

12 billion a month could buy a lot of portable toilets and
toilet paper AND some cheap water well drilling gear in addition
to local training to use and build such materiel by the locals.

12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable brick kilns
and enough fuel to start building thousands of miles/km of 
passable roads across the entire nation to bring in food from 
the local farms to the city markets causing an accompanying
large-scale economic boost that such roads would bring
if the locals are employed in such large labor-intensive
public works.

12 billion a month would buy a lot of cell phones and wireless
infrastructure which would give the average Afghani &amp; Iraqi
folk the freedom to communicate and freedom of choice to 
MOVE or STAY as they see fit!

The above 36 billion dollars could turn an enemy into a friend
if applied judiciously and with political skill. But right now,
all I see is a bunch of fear mongering politicos and war-hungry
generals wanting to give it a go without too much thought at
long-term strategic consequences of using large scale military
action within a geographical sphere of influence that does
not REQUIRE large scale military force at all!

I am available for hire if you want a better return
for your taxes than what you have been getting so far!

Any Comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iraq and Afghanistan are two illustrations of the folly<br />
of letting politicians fight wars within the divisive<br />
atmosphere of partisan politics and they showcase the idiocy<br />
of doing without the input of strategic planners beforehand.</p>
<p>We cannot lay this on the head of Obama, because he was<br />
NOT responsible for starting a war without a clear mandate<br />
from Congress and without a clear plan of action from<br />
BOTH warfighting field commanders AND exit strategists.</p>
<p>On a general scale, Afghanistan and Iraq are where they<br />
are today because of an accident in geography and demographics.</p>
<p>Today we a have a large population of young and ignorant<br />
midieval-level peasants trying to eke out a living<br />
in a hostile environment that is really nothing more than<br />
barren rock and hot sand. These are countries with<br />
NO OBVIOUS NATURAL RESOURCES and which<br />
technically have NO WAY of supporting (i.e. feeding)<br />
the populations thay have now on any sustainable basis.</p>
<p>The harsh climate and barren lands pretty much preclude<br />
the formation of any type of first world society without<br />
the addition of First-world know-how and of course that<br />
greaser of many hands &#8212; OIL &#8212; !!!</p>
<p>Mixed in with basic tribalism and lack of technology,<br />
you have a horde of Afghani Mujihadeen riding donkeys<br />
and Iraqi warlords trying to defend a way of life that<br />
THEY THINK is suited to the harsh climate in which they live.</p>
<p>Unfortunately for them, an Arabic man from an extrememly<br />
wealthy Saudi family decided to use one country as a<br />
home base for his operations against the Western World<br />
and the Afghanis are now paying dearly for that<br />
transgression.</p>
<p>The ONLY THING that Afghanistan has in ANY WAY,<br />
SHAPE OR FORM, is that it is a strategically located<br />
land mass that COULD BE used as a well-placed hub<br />
of transport connecting Russia, Europe, Africa, East Asia<br />
and the Middle East together.</p>
<p>Its lands are EXTREMELY VALUABLE as a simple facility<br />
to lay pipes, roads and train tracks that are the hub<br />
of transport for consumer goods, oil, gas &amp; water to many<br />
lands. Whoever controls that land mass can profit immensely<br />
from taking a percentage cut from all the goods, people and<br />
resources passing through and thus we have countries such<br />
as Britian, Soviet Union and today, the USA all fighting dearly<br />
for a piece of the action.</p>
<p>Local warlords and religious leaders of course took offence to<br />
the incoming hordes of outsiders muscling in on their ancestral<br />
lands thus we eventually get the situation we have today.</p>
<p>Iraq is similar except that its greatest resource is<br />
EASILY RECOVERABLE OIL and thus is MORE<br />
VALUABLE to the western world who basically muscled<br />
in on the action when the local leader (i.e. Saddam Hussein)<br />
began acting a little too belligerent and crazy for the tastes<br />
of President Bush Junior&#8230;ergo, we get a big WAR!</p>
<p>And to explain some background as to the dynamics of<br />
world power today, we must visit why our position is as<br />
it is. The Western World as we are today is because of<br />
educational sacrifices made many years and generations<br />
ago that has brought us to to a level that on the whole is far<br />
better than living in caves, mud huts and riding donkeys like<br />
the current bunch of warring Afghani Mujihadeen and<br />
Sunni/Shiite Iraqis constrained by their local cultural ties<br />
and base tribalism.</p>
<p>This will sound arrogant and condescending but<br />
The Truth is The Truth !!!</p>
<p>We are the First World BECAUSE we have mostly transcended<br />
tribalism and religious tomfoolery into group cooperation<br />
and the embrace of social, financial and technological<br />
sophistication.</p>
<p>They are living in caves &amp; mud huts (and trust they ARE living<br />
in CAVES &amp; MUD HUTS!) within Iraq &amp; Afghanistan because<br />
of a general lack of public knowledge, motivation and<br />
imagination to go beyond what is today. The public of those<br />
failed states MUST BEAR SOME RESPONSIBILITY for their<br />
own current state of being.</p>
<p>It is Simple Myopia (Short-Sightedness) with regards to<br />
accepting and embracing CHANGE in social mores,<br />
group cooperation and advancement in technology.</p>
<p>And to put it bluntly, they are BACKWARDS and will<br />
STAY THAT WAY until they LEARN to accept change!<br />
My biggest beef is WHY ARE WE (the First World) even<br />
BOTHERING to deal with them in the manner we are today.</p>
<p>As a Left-Wing Canadian and a paradoxically pro-military<br />
Libertarian, I ABSOLUTELY CRINGE at the hubris of us<br />
21st century Westerners thinking that we could use sporadic<br />
application of general military forces to effect massive cultural<br />
change on a society that requires smaller, more focused steps<br />
to bring it into said 21st century!</p>
<p>How the heck are we to expect them to accept general<br />
elections, massive industrialism &amp; industrialization when the<br />
basics have not even been introduced yet&#8230;.like a network of<br />
passable roads, clean drinking water, portable electricity and<br />
even the concept of a basic flushable toilet and toilet paper<br />
which 90% of the Afghani &amp; Rural Iraqi public has never seen<br />
much yet ever USED!</p>
<p>By trying to use MASSIVE OVERT FORCE to ensure security<br />
you are only making the country more insecure when a tight,<br />
highly focused covert military force could be used COVERTLY<br />
to REMOVE the individuals and groups that stand in the way<br />
of general Afghani and Iraqi societal progress. You do not have<br />
to kill the troublemakers, just REMOVE them physically from<br />
the local power structure and circle of influence.</p>
<p>I know that MANY people REFUSE to change unless forced to<br />
by either internal stressors or external stressors!<br />
And I definitely think using massive overt force as we are<br />
now is a MISTAKE as an external change stressor. I also<br />
think the internal divisive forces that CURRENTLY prevent<br />
a larger societal change in Afghanistan and Iraq can be<br />
mitigated by doing low-level covert internal technical and<br />
social missions to PERMANENTLY REMOVE the cultural<br />
roadblocks and local troublemakers that contribute to the<br />
blockage of social change required to jumpstart the<br />
Afghan and Iraqi march into the 21st century.</p>
<p>So what Obama needs to do NOW is pull out the current<br />
large-scale visible forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and begin<br />
spending more TIME and MONEY on highly mobile, highly<br />
covert direct action groups to coerce, infiltrate, distribute and<br />
negotiate a change in the mindset of the Iraqi/Afghani village<br />
warlord, militiaman and religious leader which will trickle down<br />
to the average villager/city dweller. And after a period of time<br />
the higher ups are found NOT TO BE CHANGING THEIR<br />
HABITS, you do what is done in the western world of work &#8212;&gt;</p>
<p>YOU FIRE THEM !!!</p>
<p>&lt;&#8212; by either removing them from religious, political &amp; monetary<br />
power or if necessary, creating such localized or personally<br />
debilitating conditions such that they are not in any shape to<br />
interfere or influence!!!</p>
<p>This will take PROBABLY DECADES (50 to 60 years is my<br />
guess) but it is still better than spending 12 billion A MONTH<br />
on current large scale operations. For that kind of money,<br />
I could outfit an entire 1000 man SEAL/DELTA team with<br />
Pashtun/Arabic language and cultural training and have them<br />
influence and/or engage local village leaders or do covert in-field<br />
direct action to remove the local war &amp; drug lords from power<br />
for at least 20 years which would do a hell of a lot more good<br />
than sending a battallion of tanks into Khandahar or Baghdad.</p>
<p>Think of it! We spend 12 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH<br />
within Iraq and Afghanistant!!! $12,000,000,000/Month!</p>
<p>12 billion a month could buy a lot of portable toilets and<br />
toilet paper AND some cheap water well drilling gear in addition<br />
to local training to use and build such materiel by the locals.</p>
<p>12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable brick kilns<br />
and enough fuel to start building thousands of miles/km of<br />
passable roads across the entire nation to bring in food from<br />
the local farms to the city markets causing an accompanying<br />
large-scale economic boost that such roads would bring<br />
if the locals are employed in such large labor-intensive<br />
public works.</p>
<p>12 billion a month would buy a lot of cell phones and wireless<br />
infrastructure which would give the average Afghani &amp; Iraqi<br />
folk the freedom to communicate and freedom of choice to<br />
MOVE or STAY as they see fit!</p>
<p>The above 36 billion dollars could turn an enemy into a friend<br />
if applied judiciously and with political skill. But right now,<br />
all I see is a bunch of fear mongering politicos and war-hungry<br />
generals wanting to give it a go without too much thought at<br />
long-term strategic consequences of using large scale military<br />
action within a geographical sphere of influence that does<br />
not REQUIRE large scale military force at all!</p>
<p>I am available for hire if you want a better return<br />
for your taxes than what you have been getting so far!</p>
<p>Any Comments?</p>
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		<title>By: deep blue</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193909</link>
		<dc:creator>deep blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193909</guid>
		<description>Now President Obama may indeed feel the White House to be such a tight place to make decisions. Very well said, Guy. Killing the enemy is really a futile attempt to attain peace. In that sense the enemy now dead has firsthandly attained peace than his killer, while the latter has to open his eyes for eternity out of guilt. An endless fear for payback could always be anticipated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now President Obama may indeed feel the White House to be such a tight place to make decisions. Very well said, Guy. Killing the enemy is really a futile attempt to attain peace. In that sense the enemy now dead has firsthandly attained peace than his killer, while the latter has to open his eyes for eternity out of guilt. An endless fear for payback could always be anticipated.</p>
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		<title>By: Westbrook</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193828</link>
		<dc:creator>Westbrook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193828</guid>
		<description>We as a nation need to get a backbone and stop whimpering.  We are at war with terrorists that will strike us here on our land if we do not try to fight them in other lands.  Extremist Islamic factions are vowed to destroy America. Americans are lulled into a false sense of security because everything is out of sight and only seen and heard on TV.  I am an American Vietnam veteran and I fought in many battles.  Regardless of whether you accepted the war or questioned the reasons, it was wrong that Americans treated us like the enemy after close to 60,000 of us died on the battle field.  America&#039;s lack of backbone made our war useless and many of us died in vain and we deserted a country that depended on us for their freedom.  We were not allowed to finish what we started.  We cannot allow ourselves to let our military people die in vain by running out of something we had to start.  Please read the following articles that I wrote on the subject:

newsflavor.com/opinions/didnt-the-vietnam-war-teach-us-anything/
authspot.com/poetry/freedom-16/
authspot.com/journals/i-am-a-vietnam-war-veteran/

I also have a blog at wdcplace.blogspot.com if anyone is interested in checking it out.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We as a nation need to get a backbone and stop whimpering.  We are at war with terrorists that will strike us here on our land if we do not try to fight them in other lands.  Extremist Islamic factions are vowed to destroy America. Americans are lulled into a false sense of security because everything is out of sight and only seen and heard on TV.  I am an American Vietnam veteran and I fought in many battles.  Regardless of whether you accepted the war or questioned the reasons, it was wrong that Americans treated us like the enemy after close to 60,000 of us died on the battle field.  America&#8217;s lack of backbone made our war useless and many of us died in vain and we deserted a country that depended on us for their freedom.  We were not allowed to finish what we started.  We cannot allow ourselves to let our military people die in vain by running out of something we had to start.  Please read the following articles that I wrote on the subject:</p>
<p>newsflavor.com/opinions/didnt-the-vietnam-war-teach-us-anything/<br />
authspot.com/poetry/freedom-16/<br />
authspot.com/journals/i-am-a-vietnam-war-veteran/</p>
<p>I also have a blog at wdcplace.blogspot.com if anyone is interested in checking it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Hogan</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193603</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193603</guid>
		<description>Southgate, Obama has to draw down in Iraq as soon as possible.  If he draws down too fast civil war will break out in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Southgate, Obama has to draw down in Iraq as soon as possible.  If he draws down too fast civil war will break out in Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Hogan</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193597</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193597</guid>
		<description>craigz, public television in the US has covered these problems in the UK.  I watch only the news on public television.  I think public television covers the news better than commercial TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>craigz, public television in the US has covered these problems in the UK.  I watch only the news on public television.  I think public television covers the news better than commercial TV.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Hogan</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193591</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193591</guid>
		<description>masz, it seems the US military is in a no win situation.  If the experts don&#039;t have a solution I certainly don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>masz, it seems the US military is in a no win situation.  If the experts don&#8217;t have a solution I certainly don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Southgate</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-193302</link>
		<dc:creator>Southgate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-193302</guid>
		<description>Nice article.Let us see how the US president solve or escape from the dilemma.Thanks for sharing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.Let us see how the US president solve or escape from the dilemma.Thanks for sharing.</p>
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		<title>By: craigz</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-192747</link>
		<dc:creator>craigz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-192747</guid>
		<description>Great post. Here in the UK the public is pretty much (dare I say) divided on the war in Afghanistan. Whilst many agree we need to track down and put an end to the people behind such acts against innocent men, women and children, the problem in the UK at the moment is why are our troops are there and more importantly why they are so ill-equipped. Many debates are raging in the UK right about now and especially as word coming from a few on the front line is how badly our government has kitted them out. Stories of troops having to purchase their own footwear and other equipment is shocking to the UK public, especially as the hierarchy in the UK have paid bonuses to MOD officials seated behind desks when our men and women out there are crying for equipment. All this whilst every day on the news we hear of a British soldie killed.
I fear that because of this war and the lack of provisions given to British Troops (I cannot speak for the US), it may spell the end of a dwindling labour government that has failed, led by Gordan Brown who, let us be honest, appears wooden and had to pick up the pieces left by Tony Blair. In any event whatever happens in Afghanistan we are fighting a war against an almost unseen enemy. Gorilla tactics are the name of the game and dare I say many US Soldiers discovered this in Nam...Look not too far into our history and we will see the Russians, as mighty as they once were and still are, pulled out of Afghanistan. 
Good luck to our troops and let us hope that the politicians of this world take notice of what really is happening and how the public feel. I guess to them it is so easy sitting behind the comfort of their warm offices...
Great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. Here in the UK the public is pretty much (dare I say) divided on the war in Afghanistan. Whilst many agree we need to track down and put an end to the people behind such acts against innocent men, women and children, the problem in the UK at the moment is why are our troops are there and more importantly why they are so ill-equipped. Many debates are raging in the UK right about now and especially as word coming from a few on the front line is how badly our government has kitted them out. Stories of troops having to purchase their own footwear and other equipment is shocking to the UK public, especially as the hierarchy in the UK have paid bonuses to MOD officials seated behind desks when our men and women out there are crying for equipment. All this whilst every day on the news we hear of a British soldie killed.<br />
I fear that because of this war and the lack of provisions given to British Troops (I cannot speak for the US), it may spell the end of a dwindling labour government that has failed, led by Gordan Brown who, let us be honest, appears wooden and had to pick up the pieces left by Tony Blair. In any event whatever happens in Afghanistan we are fighting a war against an almost unseen enemy. Gorilla tactics are the name of the game and dare I say many US Soldiers discovered this in Nam&#8230;Look not too far into our history and we will see the Russians, as mighty as they once were and still are, pulled out of Afghanistan.<br />
Good luck to our troops and let us hope that the politicians of this world take notice of what really is happening and how the public feel. I guess to them it is so easy sitting behind the comfort of their warm offices&#8230;<br />
Great post!</p>
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		<title>By: masz</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-192493</link>
		<dc:creator>masz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/history/afghanistan-lessons-of-vietnam/#comment-192493</guid>
		<description>hmm, new knowledge for me. Thank you for sharing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmm, new knowledge for me. Thank you for sharing</p>
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