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	<title>Comments on: God is an Intellectual Necessity</title>
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		<title>By: JM Kane</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-46001</link>
		<dc:creator>JM Kane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hamdy,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am asserting no such thing.  I am asserting the existence of causal relations outside of science ability to measure it...but not outside of our ability to percieve it.  Frankly, I percieve the presence of God in the creation very easily.  You may disagree with me on this because you hold to a naturalistic framework.  My disagreement with you is that the naturalistic framework is inadequate.  There are ways of knowing that fall outside the scope of science.  History would be a concrete example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hamdy,</p>
<p>I am asserting no such thing.  I am asserting the existence of causal relations outside of science ability to measure it&#8230;but not outside of our ability to percieve it.  Frankly, I percieve the presence of God in the creation very easily.  You may disagree with me on this because you hold to a naturalistic framework.  My disagreement with you is that the naturalistic framework is inadequate.  There are ways of knowing that fall outside the scope of science.  History would be a concrete example.</p>
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		<title>By: Hamdy E.</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-45999</link>
		<dc:creator>Hamdy E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You&#039;re asserting the existence of causal relations outside of perception. This is logically untenable. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Presently, it&#039;s impossible to prove a first cause since perception is needed for such an endeavor. Since the first cause supposedly happened many billions of years ago, we&#039;ll never be able to verify it. Moreover, since god cannot be perceived (although some argue against this), then it&#039;s absolutely impossible to assert a first cause. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re asserting the existence of causal relations outside of perception. This is logically untenable. </p>
<p>Presently, it&#8217;s impossible to prove a first cause since perception is needed for such an endeavor. Since the first cause supposedly happened many billions of years ago, we&#8217;ll never be able to verify it. Moreover, since god cannot be perceived (although some argue against this), then it&#8217;s absolutely impossible to assert a first cause. </p>
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		<title>By: JM Kane</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-45997</link>
		<dc:creator>JM Kane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 20:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ed,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am at this point not suggesting any particular kind of God.  God by definition is that which is eternal so whatever you call that which is outside of the known universe that originated the universe, that is god.  Only when we understand this, does it then behoove us to determine what kind of entity or being god is.  Actually, even if you don&#039;t believe in an after life, you can care very much about God.  Because if God is an angry cruel being, whose to say he can&#039;t squash our existence and play with us like pets at his whim and leisure.  For those who believe this life is all there is, it is very precious to them, and I guarantee they won&#039;t like the idea of not being in control of it.&lt;br /&gt;
These are questions everybody has to wrestle with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>I am at this point not suggesting any particular kind of God.  God by definition is that which is eternal so whatever you call that which is outside of the known universe that originated the universe, that is god.  Only when we understand this, does it then behoove us to determine what kind of entity or being god is.  Actually, even if you don&#8217;t believe in an after life, you can care very much about God.  Because if God is an angry cruel being, whose to say he can&#8217;t squash our existence and play with us like pets at his whim and leisure.  For those who believe this life is all there is, it is very precious to them, and I guarantee they won&#8217;t like the idea of not being in control of it.<br />
These are questions everybody has to wrestle with.</p>
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		<title>By: EdRoberts</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-45995</link>
		<dc:creator>EdRoberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The &quot;intellectual necessity&quot; is not a proof of God, only that our Universe was created from &#039;outside&#039;.  An outside where time, space and reality as we know it either does not exist, or is vastly different.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This &#039;creation&#039; event could certainly have been caused by a God; but unfortunately that is a somewhat slim possibility - who knows? - we could be the product of any number of things from that &#039;other&#039; place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The real question is this:  Is there life/existence after death?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I contend that even if there is a God, and He created us - if we do not live beyond this life - no one would give a good damn about God...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;intellectual necessity&#8221; is not a proof of God, only that our Universe was created from &#8216;outside&#8217;.  An outside where time, space and reality as we know it either does not exist, or is vastly different.</p>
<p>This &#8216;creation&#8217; event could certainly have been caused by a God; but unfortunately that is a somewhat slim possibility &#8211; who knows? &#8211; we could be the product of any number of things from that &#8216;other&#8217; place.</p>
<p>The real question is this:  Is there life/existence after death?</p>
<p>I contend that even if there is a God, and He created us &#8211; if we do not live beyond this life &#8211; no one would give a good damn about God&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JM Kane</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-45993</link>
		<dc:creator>JM Kane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/#comment-45993</guid>
		<description>Not quite.  You see, moral law has to come from somewhere if your going to make it morally obligatory for everyone.  So it does have to have a moral law giver or it has no absolute value.  As for gravity, there are a lot of people who think a lot of things, but unless you believe gravity is eternal, you have to acknowledge that it has a first cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not quite.  You see, moral law has to come from somewhere if your going to make it morally obligatory for everyone.  So it does have to have a moral law giver or it has no absolute value.  As for gravity, there are a lot of people who think a lot of things, but unless you believe gravity is eternal, you have to acknowledge that it has a first cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Nice try</title>
		<link>http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-45991</link>
		<dc:creator>Nice try</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://socyberty.com/philosophy/god-is-an-intellectual-necessity/#comment-45991</guid>
		<description>Most of the above is valid reasoning, apart from the following crucial part:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;When they invoke a moral law, they are assuming a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, there is no moral law.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which is basically reducible to the statement: &quot;Moral law requires a moral law-giver&quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rather than agreeing or disagreeing, I&#039;d simply like to point out that this is an assertion you&#039;ve made above, but not one you&#039;ve demonstrated -- so you&#039;re not quite proving what you claim you are. Perhaps with some revision it&#039;ll work out better in the future. Or maybe not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly there are plenty who believe a law of gravitation doesn&#039;t suppose a giver of gravitational law. Think of it like a math class -- try to show your work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the above is valid reasoning, apart from the following crucial part:</p>
<p>&#8220;When they invoke a moral law, they are assuming a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, there is no moral law.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is basically reducible to the statement: &#8220;Moral law requires a moral law-giver&#8221;.</p>
<p>Rather than agreeing or disagreeing, I&#8217;d simply like to point out that this is an assertion you&#8217;ve made above, but not one you&#8217;ve demonstrated &#8212; so you&#8217;re not quite proving what you claim you are. Perhaps with some revision it&#8217;ll work out better in the future. Or maybe not.</p>
<p>Clearly there are plenty who believe a law of gravitation doesn&#8217;t suppose a giver of gravitational law. Think of it like a math class &#8212; try to show your work.</p>
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